Kazriko Rugxungo ([info]kazriko) wrote,
@ 2009-01-01 10:18:00
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Current mood: amused

Which authority do you believe?
http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/a-new-push-to-t.html

They want to turn off the lights for "health" reasons and so they can see the milky way.

I seem to recall a campaign at some point in the recent past telling inner city families that they should make sure their outside lights and street lights are well maintained so that they can prevent crime, because criminals are like cockroaches and run from the lights...

Which one should people believe?

Personally, when I want to see most of the stars, I go up to the mesa or behind the monument. If I want to see ALL the stars, I go to Paradox valley. All you have to do is get far enough away from the lights...

OTOH, I'm not sure if the lights really help with crime. It may be a correlation != causation thing, but isn't it odd that the population centers with the most lights also have the most crime?


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[info]rickynumber24
2009-01-01 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I'm betting it wasn't the astronomers who were pushing for people to keep lights on in order to reduce crime...
As such, the only people who are being inconsistent are the policy people who are listening to different lobbyists, I'd say.

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[info]kazriko
2009-01-01 07:26 pm UTC (link)
I never said it was. I'm simply saying that we have two groups implying they are authorities with conflicting requests of people. Which one should be listened to? Stargazers who have the option of going somewhere else to look at stars, or those who would have no real option to reduce crime if the stargazers had their way?

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[info]rickynumber24
2009-01-01 09:02 pm UTC (link)
If you read the article, you'll know that the city they cited as actually implementing this did it for reasons of migratory birds and not even seeing the stars...

Bibliophage mentioned something else...
It's one thing, seeing the reflection of light from the street bouncing off of a cloud, but when you're FIVE MILES AWAY, and can STILL see the damned lights from a stadium or car lot, they're doing something wrong. Baffle those fuckers with polished steel or something - reflect the light that's going to the sides DOWN to where you want it to be. New concept, assholes - "recessed lighting".
Another interesting example, in the extreme case comes to mind when my family went to visit Yellowstone National Park... My dad likes looking at the stars, to put it badly, so we went out to one of the boardwalks at night. Old Faithful Village was on the other side of a hill or something... and the horizon was still bright for an area around where it was, on an otherwise spectacularly clear and dark area.

Light pollution is a problem.

... okay, bibliophage had a better rant, but I figured I should add that...

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[info]kazriko
2009-01-02 03:25 am UTC (link)
Heh, I didn't honestly care one way or the other, was just looking at the fact that large presumably authoritative entities are contradicting each other.


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[info]bibliophage
2009-01-01 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Considering we have streetlights in front of my house, and people _still_ burgled my car, I would say that lights don't do anything but assist criminals. At least, if they had to use flashlights, they'd be easier to spot.

I also think that light pollution is a HUGE problem. Businesses and governments installing lights that are 1) Excessively large for the area they are intended to cover, and 2) have no baffles to restrict the light to JUST the areas they are supposed to cover.

It's one thing, seeing the reflection of light from the street bouncing off of a cloud, but when you're FIVE MILES AWAY, and can STILL see the damned lights from a stadium or car lot, they're doing something wrong. Baffle those fuckers with polished steel or something - reflect the light that's going to the sides DOWN to where you want it to be. New concept, assholes - "recessed lighting".

As for the Stargazers who have the option of going somewhere else? No. they don't. The light pollution can carry for miles, especially if there's a haze in the air (or clouds). Where I grew up, we used to be able to see all the stars. Now? Forget it. You can see the absolute brightest, and only those straight up. That's thirty miles outside of Houston, btw. We aren't next to downtown (well, I am now).

It's similar to another beef I have with stores. If you're NOT open, TURN OFF YOUR SIGNS. Better yet, TURN OFF THE LIGHTS. Don't get irate with people for pulling up to the drive through and asking for food. "We're closed". "Then why are your lights on, the drive through light on, and the big sign that's sixty feet tall on?". "We don't turn them off." - another win for the idiocy prize. (Don't tell me to read the sign with the hours. They don't follow that. We tried to go to Subway last night - sign on the door, open till 8 PM. 7:00. no problem. LOCKED. Guy inside looking at us like we were nuts. Neon sign over the door - OPEN. Also, most signs can't be read without getting out of your car. They think that 10 point font is PLENTY for people to read when driving up. )

Me? TURN THE LIGHTS OFF. Increased crime? Fat chance. If it's really dark, burglars will trip over themselves.

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[info]kazriko
2009-01-02 03:32 am UTC (link)
Heh, That's a reasonable argument. Of course, if you aim them downward and cover them up, wouldn't you still get reflected light off the ground going into the air? Shouldn't we just turn all the lights off entirely? Nobody needs light at night, we can just all use hand flashlights or headlights on cars. I hate it when I'm driving, but because all of the overhead lights are on, I can't tell that my car lights are still off...

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[info]bibliophage
2009-01-02 04:42 am UTC (link)
Recessing the lighting helps no matter what. Yes, you get bounced light, but it's less than direct light. Also, it means that you'll get more bang for the buck from the lumens, because you're no longer losing them sideways - you can direct them down towards what you want to see. Think about stadium lights. There's no reason that the light should go beyond the stadium itself - but they tilt the lights so they point outwards anyway, rather than down. Car lots are another example - They only want people to see the cars, so why are they advertising their lights? Drive around, and notice how many of the lights have bulbs that are below the level of the fixture itself - that means that instead of, say, a 45 degree aperture for light, you now have a 270 degree aperture for light. That means that you are conceivably wasting two thirds of the light you are producing - so you increase the wattage to try to get more light pointed downwards.

I'm not in the east - I'm in what's referred to as the Deep South - Houston. We're not QUITE totally flat, but close (the hills start to the north), but you can see the Houston lights over an hour north of the city, depending on the conditions.


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[info]kazriko
2009-01-02 03:56 pm UTC (link)
It's east of me. :) It's also south. Anything east of denver is too far east to me, and too humid. ;) I didn't enjoy my time in Houston, it felt like I was drowning just breathing the air.

Over here, the hills are sharp and tall enough that they do a fair job at blocking the light. I only have to drive 10 miles away to see most of the stars. It's about 60 miles away before all of the light is completely gone. (There's probably other areas closer, but that's the only one I've tried.)

Of course, given that it's so mountainous here, that 60 miles away is a 110 mile drive.

I wonder if the laws setting a fixed payment to the electric company for all city owned lights regardless of their size contributes to that?

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[info]kazriko
2009-01-02 03:35 am UTC (link)
oh, except for the "stargazers have nowhere else." Maybe that's true in the god forsaken flatlands of the east. (Anything east of denver is east to me) but here there's tons of places to go where all of the light is far away or screened out.

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